English translation of a French version
performed by Tabitha du Plessis,
student at ITIRI
(University of Strasbourg)

Mysticism or esoterism?

(Transcription of the content of the video)

Interview with Serge Toussaint
(Grand Master of the Order of the Rose-Cross : The Rose-Cross, as an order, dates back to the 17th century).

Serge Toussaint:
It is a fact acknowledged by historians. In the phrase “the Order of the Rose –Cross”, you hear the word “Cross” and one might think that the Rose-Cross – or the Rosicrucians, the two words are more or less synonymous – are linked to the Christian or even the catholic church. It is an incorrect interpretation, because in the Order of the Rose-Cross, the cross symbolises the physical body of every human being. It is not a religious symbol, it is a traditional and even a universal symbol. Because all human beings – whether they be Christian, Buddist, Jewish, Muslim, whether he be a man, a woman, or of African, European or Eastern descent, one notices that when standing with his arms stretched out horizontally and legs together, his body forms a cross. And the rose at the center of the cross represents the human soul. This represents a spiritual approach to life, which means admitting that every human being has a physical body (the cross) and a soul (the rose at the center of the cross). A red rose, because red is the colour of the soul in almost all traditions. It is therefore a symbol that expresses the duality of human existence and this has nothing to do with Christianity.

Question:
What are people in search of when they ask to join the Rose-Cross?

Serge Toussaint:
They look for knowledge and wisdom. Rosicrucian teaching was formerly transmitted orally in secret meeting places to avoid religious and political persecutions. At the time, when one possessed knowledge considered as non-official by the political or religious authorities, it would cause one many problems. At the time, the rosicrucians would meet in cellars, caves, in the middle of the forest. Since the beginning of the 20th century, the world has become more tolerant in general and Rosicrucian teachings have been transcribed. These teachings are presented nowadays in the form of 12 degrees and each degree is preceded by an initiation. Each degree deals with major mystical-philosophical topics. It is a gradual process and it is in this sense that Rosicrucian teaching is initiative in nature. In my view, the initiative aspect of Rosicrucian teaching is represented, firstly, by its gradual dimension and, secondly, that each degree follows an initiation ceremony.

Question:
Why the number 12?

Serge Toussaint:
The number 12 has come up repeatedly from the time of Antiquity. The 12 Works of Hercules, the 12 constellation of the Zodiac… And let me remind you that the Rose-Cross has 12 alcoves. Each of the 12 alcoves represents a degree of initiation, of course. 12 gradual, progressive degrees,…which the members of the brotherhood work through during the course of months and years of study. Having told you that an initiation comes before each degree, you are obviously going to ask what these initiations entail. They are ceremonies that each member can either conduct at home alone, with a set of guiding instructions, or at one of the Order’s lodges, in the presence of other candidates. Of course, it may seem surprising that rosicrucians can initiate themselves. We believe the fundamental goal of any mystical or esoteric initiation is to establish a link with the divine that exists in each one of us. We believe that the greatest Master does not exist outside of ourselves, what is called in Rosicrucian terminology “the internal Master” – the best of human nature. A Rosicrucian either initiates himself with the help of the manual which contains texts intended to inspire him to engage in communion with himself, or goes to a lodge to take part in a ceremony in the presence of other candidates, guided by officers that are trained in initiation ceremonies.

Question:
What is an “initiation”?

Strong>Serge Toussaint:
The archetype of initiation can be summarised in the phrase with which you are surely familiar “know thy self”. There are ways, paths, schools of thought like the Order of the Rose-Cross that aim to offer a path with beacons, saving time for those looking for wisdom and knowledge. The leaders of the Order know more that the members themselves, of course, because they must always be a little more advanced than the members just so that they can explain certain notions and concepts to the members. Basically, “initiation” consists in becoming one with oneself, being a living point of questioning, as us rosicrucians say about everything surrounding us. Also, when speaking about initiation, one must go back to the etymology of the term; it is interesting to note that “initiation” comes from “initiare” which means “to start” – starting something new, entering into a new phase of life. In an absolute sense, in my opinion, everything in our human lives is an initiation of sorts; even for atheists. When we learn to talk, walk for the first time, to drive or even how to ride a bike it is an initiation because we have started something new. There are initations that are more physical in nature and others that are more psychological, and for the mystics, they are more spiritual.

Question:
Let’s take an atheist Rosicrucian, for example. They don’t believe in God……

Serge Toussaints:
Even less in the God as religions define, because for the Rosicrucians, God is not an anthropomorphic being, a superman somewhere up in the sky who behaves towards humans as a father to his children, deciding everything for them, including the moment and circumstances of death. For Rosicrucians – and this is important – God is more a universal intelligence, a universal conscience, a universal energy, a universal force,…Whatever you want to call it: it is not accessible to human intelligence. We think that this intelligence is found in nature, in the Universe and in Man in the form of certain laws, divine laws, of course, but more in the universal, natural or spiritual sense. The Roicrucians do not claim to study God, rather the physical and metaphysical laws by which this intelligence manifests itself. The spiritual approach of the Rosicrucians is almost scientific, if I might say. Yes, there are atheists in the A.M.O.R.C., but they are there because we do not have a religious, dogmatic conception of God. It’s more of a scientific approach, so the idea isn’t bad for them. And the atheists in the Order of the Rose-Cros do not necessarily like what we explain in terms of God’s soul, of consciousness, but what they like is more the fraternal side of the Rose-Cross. Knowing this really drew me to the Order when I became a member as I joined both because of what the Order offered as a cosmopolitan fraternity and for it’s teaching. I told myself that I was about to join an international fraternity with Christians, Jews, Buddists, Muslims, Agnostics, people with no religious views, people from African, Asian and European descent (in France, people from the right and the left) as well as all social categories, and this really appealed to me.

Question:
Getting back to the question of God…

Serge Toussaint:
Getting back to the question of God, I really think God cannot not exist because, as there is a creation, there must be a creator. Even scientists admit that the Universe and Nature are governed by ashtonishing laws, which means that the creator is prodigiously intelligent. To me, the real question I asked myself when I was very young was not to know whether God existed or not, it was rather to know to what extent this God, this intelligence, intervenes in the lives of humans, as we are. And my response to this day is that he intervenes to the extent that we allow him to. This means, the extent to which we respect these laws by which he manifests himself (universal, natural and spiritual laws). Universal laws like the diffusion of light, gravity, natural laws like the succession of the seasons, the tides, spiritual laws like karma and reincarnation for us Rosicrucians, and even love which is considered one of the most beautiful spiritual laws there are. And because you are speaking about God, you certainly know Jacques Brel who was agnostic, atheist and a believer at the same time, once said, and this is beautiful, “God is men, but they don’t know it.” I find this phrase extraordinary because I find it quite similar to my point of view. I believe than when human beings express that which is best in Man, it’s extraordinary. Think about all that Man has done in the field of art, architecture, literature, it’s extraordinary, it’s ingenious. But when his darker side comes out, it really is terrible.

Question:
This initiation you describe, does it not, in the end, constitute the basis of education that everyone should have access to?...

Serge Toussaints:
You are right to some degree – the basis of Rosicrucian philosophy is to improve on a human level. Our premise is that inherent to all human beings is a certain number of virtues, that Socrates loved to talk about so much (kindness, tolerance, trust, etc…). It is the task of every individual to cultivate these virtues within himself. Of course, you can reasonably say that we don’t need to be Rosicrucian or spiritual to awaken these virtues, and you are right, but we believe, if you will, that the fact of attributing these virtues to the presence of a soul in Man makes the matter more transcendental. But you don’t have to. Someone who is a staunch humanist, which is probably true in your case, can, without being spiritual, be someone extraordinary on a human level. But on the other hand, and I’m just playing Devil’s advocate, the sole fact of believing in God does not make someone superior, we know this. Just think of all the fundamentalists and the fanatics in the world.

Question:
One notes that the Rosicrucians also use the symbolism of the number 7.

Serge Toussaints:
It is found in the most ancient writings; apparently it’s the number of the perfect cycle, at least on earth – the seven days of the week. It’s considered a perfect cycle more on a material level because the perfect cycle on a spiritual level is 9 and on a universal level it would be 12. In Rosicrucian teaching, there is a whole degree dedicated to the symbolism of numbers. 1 is Unity, 2 is duality,…3 is interesting although we don’t often speak about it: the law of the triangle exists and everybody is familiar with it through the saying “never two without three”. What the law of the triangle actually states is that as soon as two conditions of opposite natures come into contact, it necessarily produces a third, which consists of both. One can demonstrate this easily, for example electricity is the union of a positive and negative charge. If I throw a ball against a wall, the ball will bounce back because of an active and passive force, which creates this rebound when they meet. Before cloning, the union of a man and a woman was necessary for the birth of a child. Behind every number there is a law. You spoke to me about the number 40. In general, not specifically Rosicrucian tradition, this number represents a trial. But if you asked me why I wouldn’t be able to tell you. But I think there are archetypes. The definition of an archetype is complicated, but I think the numbers is a chicken and egg dilemma, because I think there are certain things that are beyond human intelligence, which constitute archetypes – ideas that exist in our minds, without us really knowing why, and that drive these laws. Why does 3 symbolise the law of the triangle, 4 symbolise stability, 5 the number of Man, 6 the number on the Cross of David, etc… The origin of this is unknowable, but one cannot deny the meaning behind all this, and in my opinion that’s what’s important. Besides traditional movements or esoteric schools, it’s true that the symbolism of numbers is no longer used at all. Nowadays, it’s arithmetic, mathematics, and the other aspect that few people know about. It’s a pity because despite these different interpretations, overall there is a universal symbolism for at least the 10 first numbers. 8 is the union of the finite and the infinite, the universal, the microcosm and the macrocosm,… so it’s a pity that this knowledge is lost.

Question:<.strong>
What is the purpose of the secret in initiation?

Serge Toussaints:
It’s true that there is always an element of secrecy in initiation because I am obviously not going to tell you what the twelve initiations entail, because Rosicrucian initiation must above all have an emotional impact, so if we reveal what it’s about, the emotional impact is lost. There are also codes in Rosicrucian initiations, gestures and passwords that are found in other traditions. Obviously, I will not reveal these passwords to you because one must receive this word, hear it, memorise it, pass it on when the day comes that you wish to participate in the same initiation. It is all very symbolic, but the notion of secrecy is something important. Obviously not to a negative end, not to harm or to obscure either…But one must be able to not reveal everything. We live in a time where everything must be revealed. There is no modesty, everything must be broadcast; one can see it as voyeurism to the extreme. It is the opposite of initiation because initiation takes place on a path of interiorisation whereas we live in a time where everything must be exteriorised to an excessive degree.

Question:
What happens during an initiation ceremony?

Serge Toussaints:
There is no need for a secret in itself, let’s just say that secrecy, or certain secret elements are part of the initiation, but secrecy in itself is not the goal. The goal of initiation, in a movement such as the Rosicrucian movement, is to allow each member to have access to new keys in terms of the degree that he is about to study and most importantly to allow himself to become one with himself for 45 minutes, an hour. Initiation is really about interiorising, whereas we live in a world that is increasingly agitated, tumultuous, frantic, where you have to move fast. What the 12 Rosicrucian initiations have in common is that one member of the Order, a man or a woman that has gone through this initiation, will experience a certain inner peace or relaxation for 45 minutes to an hour. Through the mystical and spiritual ambiance, this encourages union with the self.